Ade - Good Luck and stay true to your path.
Hope you don't mind, but
I'm going to post this excerpt from a book that I found very helpful in definining one's "Path".
It might help you put into perspective your growth, compared the the non-growth of the witness org.
See if you fit anywhere. Where would most JWs be?
I apologize for the length & that I can't make headings or words before the : bold, which might make it easier/quicker to read - if anyone can, I'd appreciate it. thanks
an excerpt from the book FINDING FAITH by Brian McClaren
pg 66
In this schema, one gradually outgrows one version of faith, discards it for a more fitting version, outgrows that, and so on. I call this schema "The Four Stages." It was inspired by specialists in cognitive development such as William Fowler and William Perry, psychologists such as Robert Coles and Scott Peck, writers such as Soren Kierkegaard and Walker Percy, and poets such as William wordsworth and William Blake. It goes like this:
Stage 1: Simplicity
Focus: Right or wrong? Being right, belonging to the right group.
Motive: Pleasing authority figures, being an "insider"
Beliefs: All truth is known or knowable. There are easy answers to every question. The right authority figures know the right answers.
Perception: Dualistic, in terms of right versus wrong, good versus bad.
Mottoes: You're either for us or against us; it's all or nothing.
Authorities: Godlike. God's representatives, with divine right. They help you know.
Like/Dislike: We like bold, clear, assertive, confident people who know the answers. We dislike tentative, qualifying, timid, or unsure people who say, "I don't know."
Life is: A war.
Strategy: Learn the answers. learn what to think. Learn to identify and avoid "the enemy".
Strengths: Highly committed, willing to sacrifice and suffer for the cause.
Weaknesses: Also willing to kill or inflict suffering for the cause. Arrogant. Simplistic. Combative. Judgmental, Intolerant. Incapable of distinguishing major from minor issues, since every issue is part of the system that has embraced all (as universal, absolute, and inerrant) or nothing (as false, wrong, discredited).
Identity: I find my identity in my leader or group.
Relationships: Dependent or codependent
God is: The Ultimate Authority Figure and/or Ultimate Friend.
Transition: As Stage 1 people encounter diversity in their ranks, or are disillusioned because of fallen leaders or internal squabbles in the group from which they derive their identity, or are unsettled by the multiplicity of viewpoints, they tend to swing from a desire for internal knowledge and certainty to a desire for external accomplishment and success, thus moving on to Stage 2. The world isn't simple anymore, so the task changes – to make life work in this complex environment.
Stage 2: Complexity
Focus: Effective or ineffective? Accomplishing, learning technique, winning.
Motive: Reach goals; be effective.
Beliefs: Almost anything is doable. Different people have different methods, beliefs, approaches – the key is finding the best ones.
Perception: Pragmatic – looking for the useful, practical.
Mottoes: There's more than one way to do things – find whatever works best for you.
Authorities: Coaches. They help you grow.
Like/Dislike: We like people who give clear instructions and let us know what they expect of us. We like people who motivate us and make us feel like doing things. We dislike people who are too dogmatic (Stage 1) or mystical (Stage 3).
Life is: A complex game. You have to learn the rules.
Strategy: Learn the technique. Play the game. Find what people want and give it to them.
Strengths: Enthusiasm, idealism, action.
Weaknesses: Superficial, naive.
Identity: I find my identity in a cause or achievement.
Relationships: Increasingly independent
God is: The Ultimate Guide or Coach.
Transition: Three problems push people out of Stage 2 (usually against their will). First, the prevalence of Stage 1 people always claiming to have all the answers prohibits Stage 2 people from escaping questions about truth. Second, the failure of "foolproof" techniques and projects leaves them disillusioned and perplexed – prime characteristics of Stage 3. Third, Stage 2 people survive by fragmenting complex and apparently contradictory truth into categories (scientific truth, religious truth, social or relational truth, political truth). Eventually, a desire for unity and integration causes them to be dissatisfied with their fragmented approach.
Stage 3: Perplexity
Focus: Honest or dishonest? Authentic or inauthentic? Understanding, seeing through appearances and illusions to reality.
Motive: Being honest, authentic.
Beliefs: All is questionable. Nothing is really certain, except uncertainty. Everything is relative.
Perception: Relativistic.
Mottoes: Everyone's opinion is equally valid and equally questionable. Who knows who really is right?
Authorities: Demonic. They're dishonest controllers, trying to impose easy answers on complex realities.
Like/Dislike: We like other questioners, free spirits, and non-conformists. We dislike people in Stages 1 and 2.
Life is: A joke or a mystery or a search.
Strategy: Ask hard questions. Be ruthlessly honest.
Strengths: Depth, honesty, often humor or artistic sensitivity.
Weaknesses: Cynical, uncommitted, withdrawn, depressed, or elitist.
Identity: I find my identity in solitude or a small circle of similarly alienated friends.
Relationships: Counter-dependent
God is: Either a mythic authority figure I've outgrown, an opiate of the masses, or a mystery I'm seeking.
Transition: One of the key struggles in Perplexity is the battle between arrogance ("Those simpletons in Stages 1 and 2 don't see how shallow and primitive they are! Ha! They've never even asked the questions we ask, much less found answers for them! Ha!") and humility. And there is much in this stage to humble a person. Notably, one has to get on with life, and life requires one to make commitments, and commitments grow out of values and beliefs, so one is not left with the option of staying in limbo. One has to make choices. One can't blindly accept a group's or authority figure's agenda anymore, but one has to take responsibility for living life and proceed – chastened and more realistic, often disillusioned and less idealistic – in short, humbled.
Stage 4: Humility
Focus: Wise or unwise? Fulfilling potential. Making the most of life.
Motive: Make the best of opportunities. Serve, contribute, make a difference.
Beliefs: There are a few basic absolute or universal truths, many relative matters, and much mystery. There are enough basics to live by.
Perception: Integrated, synthesizing the dualism, pragmatism, and relativism of earlier stages.
Mottoes: I'll focus on a few grand essentials. In essentials, unity; in nonessentials, diversity; in all things, charity.
Authorities: They're people like you and me – imperfect, doing their best, sometimes admirable and dependable, sometimes untrustworthy and despicable, sometimes sincerely misguided.
Like/Dislike: We like people who combine thoughtfulness with accomplishment.
Life is: A mixture; what you make it; what it is.
Strategy: Learn all the answers and techniques you can (Stages 1 and 2), ask all the questions you can (Stage 3), and try to fulfill your potential, admitting how little you really know.
Strengths: May exhibit strengths of earlier stages, plus stability, endurance, wisdom, and humility.
Weaknesses: May display weaknesses of earlier stages.
Identity: I find my identity in my relationship to the whole, or to God.
Relationships: Interdependent.
God is: Knowable in part, yet mysterious; present, yet transcendent; just, yet merciful (able to hold dynamic tensions about God).
Transition: That this is the last stage in our schema doesn't suggest that one lives happily ever after! At this stage of integration, one now faces all the weaknesses of the previous stages. Whenever one enters a new context (a new career, a new religion, a new social network), he or she may well recapitulate the stages repeatedly. After all, humility, like maturity, is obviously not a destination, but rather a journey in itself.
A QUALIFIER, A FEW BRIEF TANGENTS NOT QUITE TAKEN, AND A SUMMARY.
Clearly, people don't generally move out of or into a stage in one giant step. There are many hesitant exploration, retreats, renewed explorations. The transitions from infancy to childhood, childhood through puberty, adolescence through adulthood, and youg adulthood to middle age certainly don't happen suddenly; a twelve-year-old is a child one minute, a young adult the next, it seems, then a child again, and so on. The same is true of these stages.
By the way, we could describe a Stage 0, where a person simply believes what he or she has been told and taught, without questioning, without even recognizing the possibility of questioning, without realizing there are any alternative beliefs or differing groups out there. Or we could explore cultic behavior as a regressive step in this process, where, say, a young adult becomes intimidated by the complexities or perplexities of growing up and throws himself into a Stage 1 group, against his better judgment, as a "bad faith" act of emotional desperation.
Or we could consider how different religions, churches, denominations, or religious organizations often enfranchise and serve people at one stage, but not others. That could open up some fascinating considerations of how organizations can better serve people through the whole process. Or we could consider how the Bible or other sacred writings appear to people at various stages ... as the Book of Easy Answers and Absolutes for Stage 1, as the Spiritual how-To-Manual for Stage 2, either as an outmoded tool of oppression by Stage 1 authority figures or as a refreshingly diverse and honest artifact for Stage 3 fold, or as a library for lifelong learning for those in Stage 4. But these tangents would take us too far afield. Our focus here is on the finding of faith and the growing of faith – which generally feels like losing faith.
Here's how it works: When a person begins to outgrow Stage 1 faith, it feels like doubt. Then, appropriating a Stage 2 faith feels like finding faith again – and that feeling of satisfaction and renewal lasts until Stage 3 is knocking at the door. Most people don't know there is a more advanced stage waiting outside the door, so to them, this knocking feels dreadful, disloyal, dangerous. most of us fight it and try to avoid answering the door as long as possible. It feels like the end of faith, not the beginning of a new stage, when the knocking of doubt begins. Even when Stage 4 knocks, Stage 3 usually only lets go after a fight.
Will Power
JoinedPosts by Will Power
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the true path ??
by Ade inthoughts, please indeed proofs of the true faith / church / religion .
backed up firmly by scripture .can indeed any religion be described as having no , idol worship , man made doctrine , conscience controlling of its members.
if not which is the correct way to worship god at this moment in time and that to come.
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Will Power
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God's name ??
by Ade ini know this has probably been covered before, if so i apologize for dragging it up again.
1) is it acceptable just because its an accepted pronunciation to call god je-ho-vah
2) should the witnesses constantly be saying jehovah this and jehovah that, as it seems to me to be taking up gods name ( if it is correct ) in a worthless way.
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Will Power
I think its important to the JWs that you get the name that they've picked right, because they believe that there are so many gods in this world.
I've never met a more superstituous bunch.
They say ther is only one god but they don't actually believe it.
if they did, it wouldn't matter if you said allah, or yahweh or whatever
- if you truly believe there is only one god how could you possibly accidently pray to another? LOL
Its like they're always sneering - na na nana na - my god's better than your god - Just like the pharrohs
they have created a god in their own image.
wp -
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Why does the trinity matter... or not?
by drew sagan inhere's what i'm putting out there.
every jw has a list of teachings that they know 'prove' they are the only true religion.
while they turn to many things in order to prove their points, i have noticed a special tendancy to turn to just a few things in the end.
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Will Power
Right after Jesus said at John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one" The Jews took up stones again to stone him for blasphemy & makest thyself God.
So right there at the time - the Jews did not "interpret" as the Jws do - as being "in union" - like we think the same way.... but that Jesus meant what he said - I and the Father are one. 10:38 that ye may know, and believe that the Father is in me and i in him. The Interlinear Greek - English New Testament.
I think that the JWs believe quite a bit in the list you gave - they just give the concepts different names/versions.
Immortal soul - Jesus was a human, died then lives forever as a spirit - they don't have a problem with that. As well, JWs believe that they (a soul) will live forever (immortal) in paradise (where god is) aka heaven.
Trinity - they actually have many of their own versions of this concept. they can't comprehend (as the bible foretells) in the mystery of Christ, so they make up their own - Jesus by their teaching was many persons in one + they baptize in the name of the Father, Son, & Spirit directed Org.
Obeying the WT is same as Obeying God - they are One
Hell - taught as the place where god is not/the state without god - JWs call this disfellowshipping and most can agree - they put your thru hell/agony.
The name Jehovah - everyone knows this is just a made up word of a translation. Inserting vowels, translated to english. Yahweh is just as easy to say & is a much older translation. The way they thro this familiar "nickname" around is not very hallowed. Jesus said we should pray to our Father, the one in heaven....
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BETHEL COMPUTER SYSTEMS BEING UPGRADED!!!!!!!!!!
by badboy ini understand from a board member that they are upgrading the computers at bethel!
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Will Power
one way of destroying the evidence - get new computers - Money well spent eh?
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Last Assembly ever!
by montana96 inmy parents are headed to the sydney convention this weekend.
she has told my sister this is the last assembly they will be having in this system.
the end is coming!.
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Will Power
Not really Stevenyc, especially since JR Brown stated that they (WT) are not spirit directed or inspired. (LDHs interview)
They'd be testing the Society - and every JW should be told the difference! and how BEHIND THE TIMES THEY ARE on their spiritual food.
lol
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I came home to find my wife crying over THAT article.
by jambon1 ini came home today to find my wife crying whilst reading the 'when a loved one leaves jehovah' article.
its been a good few months now and i can appreciate how she feels.
but it just irritates me how my disagreeing with this religion has such a catastrophic effect on our everyday lives.
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Will Power
Terry - to expand on that, didn't Jesus say that he didn't come to save the "good ones" but the sinners.
In other words - hang around and influence the non-believers....
exactly the opposite of JW mentality -
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Thoughts...
by RichieRich inall to often, my mind drifts to my mixed feelings for my mother.
the deep love that burned in my heart for the woman who had given me life.. the suicidal remorse i felt for bringing such guilt and reproach on her good name.. the blinding anger i felt for her never questioning her beliefs, but always questioning her son.. and so i'm left with a vacuous emotional chamber for a large element that is missing from my soul.. and when you've lost your most valuable possesion, everything else is gravy on an empty plate - pointless.. and so i hurt too, and i love my mom, but does she love me?
the unanswered question haunts my mind.. we recieve, we give, and sometimes, we just plain screw up.
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Will Power
remember that thread where everyone wrote all the things they liked about RichieRich?
Maybe now is the time to anonymously send it?
or was it already?
wp
Chin up Richie, better days ahead. Your poem is beautiful. -
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Nuggets from the newest Study book, "WHAT DOES THE BIBLE Really TEACH?"
by jgnat inwell blow me down.
i learned something new today about jw doctrine.
from page 79 of the "what does the bible really teach?
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Will Power
nice nugget there jgnat!!
were did the conversation between satan and the mortal jesus take place when satan offered it all to jesus if he'd just "sell his soul"
If god can't be more than one place at time time - how come satan gets all these perks?
who is the almighty one that is being preached about anyway?
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More Cayman News - Jesus/Michael/Jesus - bible based?
by Will Power inhttp://www.caymannetnews.com/cgi-script/csarticles/articles/000039/003943.htm .
letter to the editor .
the watch towers teachings are convoluted .
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Will Power
LOL
guess that should be
michael/jesus/michael -
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More Cayman News - Jesus/Michael/Jesus - bible based?
by Will Power inhttp://www.caymannetnews.com/cgi-script/csarticles/articles/000039/003943.htm .
letter to the editor .
the watch towers teachings are convoluted .
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Will Power
http://www.caymannetnews.com/cgi-script/csArticles/articles/000039/003943.htm
LETTER TO THE EDITOR
The Watch Towers teachings are convoluted
Monday, July 17, 2006
Dear Sir:
As is typical of Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs), Mike Trissel failed to completely explain the WatchTower Society's teachings on the nature of Jesus Christ; probably because he himself does not understand the WatchTower's convoluted teachings.
First, the WatchTower Society teaches that humans do not have a separate soul-spirit that is the essence of an individual. Instead of the soul and spirit returning to God for assignment to paradise or Hades when the body dies (awaiting resurrection), JWs teach that humans totally cease to exist when the body dies. Instead of believing that the "resurrection" will be the future uniting of the soul and spirit with the body (as taught in the Bible), JWs teach that the "resurrection" will be a "replication" of the previously existing human; with the previously existing "thought patterns" (recorded by God) installed in a new body.
It is essential to understand the above when trying to figure out the convoluted WatchTower teachings about who is "Jesus Christ". Since the Bible plainly teaches that Jesus existed as the divine "Word of God" prior to coming to live on earth and that He returned to heaven thereafter, JWs must attempt to explain who is/was "Jesus Christ" consistent with their teaching that humans have no separate soul-spirit.
Jehovah's Witnesses teach that prior to living on earth as the human named Jesus, the "Word of God" was merely an archangel named Michael.
JWs believe the "Word of God" was merely a created being like all other angels. Rather than being "divine", Michael was mortal. The only thing "special" about Michael as compared with other angels or archangels was that he just so happened to be God's first creation; with God then using Michael to carry out the rest of God's creation works.
Michael was superior to other angels only via the instances of authority granted exclusively to him.
Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus Christ was a 100% mortal human when here on earth. Since Jesus Christ did not have a separate spirit-soul living within his human body, then it was impossible for him to have been both the "Son of Man" and the divine "Son of God" (as taught in the Bible). JWs teach that when the human named Jesus was crucified that he completely ceased to exist.
Since Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that the mortal human named Jesus also had a divine soul-spirit that was a continuation of his previous existence in heaven, then by necessity, the JWs must believe that Michael the Archangel completely ceased to exist while Jesus was using Michael's "thought patterns", which God had installed in the newly created human named Jesus while he existed here on earth.
When Jesus was resurrected on the third day, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that instead of being "resurrected" as "Jesus Christ" with a "glorified body", that God "replicated" him back to existing as Michael the Archangel. As a reward for not sinning against God while living on earth as a human, JWs believe that God granted Michael an "immortal" existence in heaven; though still as an angel.
Yes, all this "mess" is difficult to understand and follow, because it does not make sense. However, this is what the WatchTower Society teaches. JWs will deny much of the above, because they don't follow nor understand it themselves.
Mark Jasper
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So, is it true? will JWs deny this? what is their GOOD NEWS? I never hear THIS at the door. - will power
"I'd rather have questions I can't answer, than answers I can't question"